Skopje, 20 June 2023 (MIA) – Tuesday marks World Refugee Day with a sad record of over 100 million forcibly displaced people in the world. In an interview with MIA, Monica Sandri, UNHCR Representative in North Macedonia, said this is a sad reality caused by increasing conflicts in the world.  Particularly three conflicts account for 52 percent of refugees. If we would solve the conflicts in Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan, Sandri says, we would immediately witness 52 percent less refugees in the world.  

"Refugees are people, they’re human beings and half of them are women and children. If it was up to them, they would have not left their country they would still be there, enjoying their normal life, because they are people like you and I, except for the fact they were in the unlikely situation that maybe there was a war, or something else that forced them to flee their country and seek protection in another country. We have to understand what is there behind the word refugee - there are children refugees, there are women refugees, and men refugees. People like all of us," said Sandri.

Below is the full interview with UNHCR Representative in North Macedonia, Monica Sandri, along with video material. 

Today is World Refugee Day, can you tell us more about this day?

Thank you very much for giving the UNHCR and me, personally, this opportunity to mark World Refugee Day by talking about refugees. This is really the objective, the goal of World Refugee Day. Firstly and foremost, to give the opportunity to talk about refugees, because very often they are left out of the public discourse, so June 20 is the day on which all countries in the world, and all UNHCR Offices in the world talk about refugees and asylum seekers.

What is the situation with refugees today, what do the statistics and numbers say about forcibly displaced people?

Every year, before June 20, UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency publishes the Global Trends report and in this report for the previous year, in this case for 2022, we can find all the data and statistics about forcibly displaced people, about refugees as people who are forced to flee and cross an international border and also internally displaced people, as people who are forced to flee their homes but remain in their own country. We can find a lot of numbers, I always feel uncomfortable talking about numbers because it looks as if behind the numbers there are no people, but the sad reality is indeed that behind every number there is a human story and a human tragedy, and unfortunately, many of the refugees and forcibly displaced people are children and women.

You mentioned in the report that this is the record for refugees. Can you tell us the number and how it compares to the statistics from 2021?

The Global Trends report shows indeed that this is a sad reality. The trend of forcibly displaced people remains on the rise, the trajectory is very clear, every year the numbers are bigger and bigger. 2022 has also set an important and sad record, we have passed over 100 million forcibly displaced people in the world and we have already reached 110 million in 2023.

Where do these people flee from mostly?

There are many conflicts in the world, and unfortunately, particularly three conflicts account for 52 percent of refugees. So, if we would solve the conflicts such as in Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan, we would immediately witness 52 percent less refugees in the world, but there are many other conflicts and unfortunately again, the trend is not to see less conflicts but even more conflicts.

In what way did the Russian invasion contribute to this number?

We have seen the outflow of Ukrainian refugees be the fastest outflow of refugees since the Second World War. If we can imagine, before the Russian invasion we had approximately 27 Ukrainian refugees, and this went up to 5.7 million Ukrainian refugees in the world. So, an incredible number and the fastest since the Second World War.

What is the situation in the Republic of North Macedonia like? How many asylum seekers are there in the country?

Maybe contrary of what sometimes people think, there are not that many asylum seekers and refugees. Many people come to North Macedonia but then they pass through the country. 

What the authorities can do to improve the protection of refugees?

North Macedonia is also doing a lot for the protection of refugees, and the first thing to be done is to make sure the systems are in place. First and foremost, the asylum system. Every country should develop and build an asylum system in accordance to international standards and conventions. This is the first thing, but just an asylum system is not enough to improve the protection of refugees, it is also very important to have this accompanied by an effective integration system. So, first they need a legal status but then they also need to be able to integrate within society and make sure they can contribute to society, and that is the most important thing. But also it is very important to have effective migration policies, border management policies, making sure that the security is there. However, the system should always be mindful of respecting the protection needs of people that may be forced to cross the border.

What each of us, or all the other stakeholders, can do to improve the protection of refugees?

Everything goes in tandem, because we cannot talk about refugee protection by thinking only and putting the responsibility exclusively on governments and parliaments. It’s an effort of the whole of society. The right mindset for example is very important. A negative narrative around refugees will not help. It is very important, that first and foremost people get educated and educate themselves on what it means to be a refugee, why people become refugees, and to move away from the stereotypes. Refugees are people, they’re human beings and half of them are women and children. If it was up to them, they would have not left their country they would still be there, enjoying their normal life, because they are people like you and I, except for the fact they were in the unlikely situation that maybe there was a war, or something else that forced them to flee their country and seek protection in another country. We have to understand what is there behind the word refugee - there are children refugees, there are women refugees, and men refugees. People like all of us.

You are familiar with the situation in North Macedonia, what is the climate like here? Do the Macedonian citizens accept the refugees or do they still have a lot of stereotypes?

There are stereotypes everywhere, but I think the climate is changing, times are also changing. We put a lot of hope especially in the young generation, in the youth. People now are more informed, more educated, travel more, they are more acquainted with differences and they are also more inclined to recognize and accept such differences, and to be willing to work together and build something together, a better society a better world, and this is the dream of the Agenda 2030.

Referring to the Agenda, we know that UNHCR has a lot of activities on this topic, one of them is the Global Compact on Refugees and the Global Refugee Forum. Can you clarify for us what they represent?

The word that says it all 'global compact on refugees' - ‘global compact’ - that's what it is really about. With the Global Compact on Refugees the General Assembly and member states wanted to make a call to advance solutions for refugees, or forcibly displaced people, because the number is on the rise. The way we have talked about this issue so far is simply not enough because those numbers keep increasing, there are more and more new conflicts and more refugees, while on the other hand we don't see enough solutions. So, the Global Compact on Refugees wants to spotlight that we need to redouble our efforts, to work together more and in a more effective way provide solutions for refugees. Another information that comes from the Global Trends report is that the majority of refugees, despite what people think, are hosted in low and middle income countries. Not only in wealthy countries. Not all refugees go to the West, the majority of refugees are hosted in low and middle income countries. So, it is not fair that only low and middle income countries have to assume the responsibility for refugees. It's a world issue, every country is called to assume responsibility for advancing solutions for refugees.

What about the Global Refugee Forum?

The Global Forum is precisely a moment in which all countries, and not only countries but also civil societies, entities, academics, all different components in society come together and say what they would do to advance refugee protection and find solutions for refugees. The first Global Refugee Forum took place after the adoption of the Global Compact on Refugees in 2019, and on that occasion states and different entities pledged on a number of initiatives to advance refugee protection and solidarity. Therefore, four years later, in December 2023, we are going to have the second forum. On that occasion we will take stock of the progress made during these past four years, and we will have an opportunity to make new pledges. It's important to mention that it is not just about making good laws, it's about advancing global solidarity.

Apart from this we know that statelessness is another issue that the UNHCR is helping eradicate. Could you tell us more about the situation?

The issue of ending statelessness is close to my heart. A stateless person is a person that has no documentation, no birth certificate, no ID, was not registered at birth. Basically, this person does not exist formally. It is a human tragedy because it's almost unimaginable how an individual can live without having a legal identity. It's almost impossible to think what that means, because it puts the individual in the greatest level of vulnerability. It's not only because that person has no access to any rights, nothing. They are unable to visit any health facility, school or even if they do, they won't be able to get any certificates, they are unable to vote, work, inherit, marry, and even die because they cannot be registered. It's unthinkable and I always say that this is a priority, and it’s also an objective of the 2023 agenda. Taking into consideration of the level of vulnerability of an individual, many of which are children, the Secretary General has requested a deadline. It's a global plan, a global deadline to end statelessness in the world by 2024.

North Macedonia made progress on this issue as the amendments with the Law on Civil Registry were recently adopted. Can you tell us what has changed now?

We still haven't finished celebrating, particularly UNHCR, because statelessness is part of our mandate. But it's not only us celebrating, it’s all the UN agencies and other civil society organizations, other international organizations (OSCE, the Council of Europe). We have a big coalition that works with us. The Parliament adopted the amendments that allow a solution for all known cases of statelessness. That is one of the two conditions that the country ended statelessness. First the resolution of all the known cases, and the second is having a system in the legal framework that prevents future cases from occurring. This milestone that happened a few days ago set North Macedonia on the right path to resolve all cases by the end of 2023, hopefully even before the end of the year and to become the first country in Europe, and the second in the world, to end statelessness. North Macedonia has made history, but what is more important is that this is a life changing event for all people without an ID and birth certificate. We are all so happy for them.

Finally, can you tell us UNHCR’s advice for lowering the record on refugees that were seized last year? What are the activities that you may have?

The responsibility of lowering the number of refugees I wish rested with the UNHCR, but this is not the case. What would make a big difference is what I said before, stopping the conflict. That is the most important thing. As I mentioned, just three conflicts alone account for 52 percent of the number of forcibly displaced people. That would be the first thing to do and the UNHCR stand ready. This is our role and mandate to oversight the situation and support the government and all stakeholders involved to make sure that systems are in place for all international standards, norms and guarantees. It's important we pursue solutions and become all together more effective for finding solutions for refugees.

Angela Rajchevska

Photo: Frosina Naskovikj

Video and editing: Andrej Brankovikj